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| How often does your Vet recommend that your dog be given core vaccines? |
| Every Year |
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33% |
[ 5 ] |
| Every 2 Years |
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20% |
[ 3 ] |
| Every 3 Years |
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13% |
[ 2 ] |
| Less often than every 3 Years |
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13% |
[ 2 ] |
| Titers tests yearly |
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20% |
[ 3 ] |
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| Total Votes : 15 |
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| dogfan |
 Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 10:13 pm
Post subject: Vaccination protocols |
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As for me, when I see that experts in the field are not continuing to vaccinate their own pets based on their research and knowledge, that is significant. But again, people need to be aware, and do their research.
"My own pets are vaccinated once or twice as pups and kittens, then never again except for rabies," Ronald D. Schultz, chairman of the University of Wisconsin’s Department of Pathobiological Sciences, wrote in the March 1998 issue of Veterinary Medicine." http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/annualboosters.html Dr. Schultz's name comes up over and over in these articles - he is an expert - and is dept chair at U WI vet school, responsibilities: "Immunology; virology; pathogenesis of infectious disease" . http://www.vetmed.wisc.edu/people/ronald%20d%20schultz
"My dog Splash was vaccinated for DHP at 8 & 12 weeks, Rabies at 16 weeks, and DHP Rabies again at one year. I am through vaccinating. Splash goes to the Clinic with me weekly where he is potentially exposed to parvo and distemper. We go on 25 mile horseback rides through the woods where there are skunks and bats. I feel confident he is protected for life. Dr Bob Rogers" http://www.critteradvocacy.org/Are%20We%20Over%20Vaccinating%20Our%20Pets.htm Dr. Rogers has been researching this topic for at least 14 years, and feels so strongly about it, he's created the CritterAdvocacy.org website and organization (link above). He has a slide show that's very interesting - http://www.newvaccinationprotocols.com/index.htm
W. Jean Dodds is also an expert in the field, and she says "Dogs and cats immune systems mature fully at 6 months. If a modified live virus vaccine is given after 6 months of age, it produces immunity, which is good for the life of the pet (I.e.: canine distemper, parvo, feline distemper). " http://www.everythingsheltie.com/new_vaccprotocol.htm Dr. W. Jean Dodds is another expert, noted as a "world renowned immunologist Dr. W. Jean Dodds, DVM" -- her resume is at the bottom of this website - http://www.dogsadversereactions.com/vDrDodds.html - - here are her own words about vaccination protocols http://www.vonhimmelrotts.com/dr_dodds_shot.htm
If you want to find more info on any of these individuals, search for their names on the web. Also, if you search on "canine vaccination protocols" or feline, you'll find tons of info on the web related to this topic. |
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| CatsRus |
Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:24 am
Post subject: Re: Vaccination protocols |
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| dogfan wrote: | | As for me, when I see that experts in the field are not continuing to vaccinate their own pets based on their research and knowledge, that is significant. But again, people need to be aware, and do their research. |
I'm still waiting for scientific, controlled, actual "studies". We don't tend to vaccinate frequently, but let's face it, every animal that comes through rescue has to have a vaccination as you don't know if they ever HAVE had one. Titers are not 100%, especially when dealing with animals of unknown origin. If it were your own pets, with known histories, where you had a field of reference - different story.
The "experts" in the field are a handful of professional...there are literally thousands or more professionals, they are a small minority - albeit loud one. Many others have jumped on the bandwagon, but there isn't an opinion based on a consensus or even a majority. It is just like when a bunch of docs said "hey, let's make the spay/neuter age 6 months" or the computer guys said "we only need 2 digits for the year, why code all 4?".
I'm still jury out, but observing attentively!
As for the Purdue study? Not. It is based on reviewing "histories" and observing feedback from the pet's owners/caregivers. Not done in controlled environments with scientific rules being applied. How do you measure "when behavioral problems began, it was within 3 months of being jabbed"...what scientific study comment is that? lol
I get the "point", no pun intended, I just want factual. I have been forwarding everything to my vets and they are eagerly surfing the webs themselves. Several are extremely active in conferences and participate in "think tank" type of organizations.
One of the problems is, well, you might recall the ProHeart shot? A "study" was done and the product was launched and animals became ill or died. Then there is the FIP vaccine which has had some very negative results and no one seems sure when/why/how.
We are quick to say that companies making vaccines and vets using them are all in it for the money. I don't believe that personally, I find too many wonderful vets, just as I find wonderful people in any facet of life or work. One could also argue that some of the "professionals" pushing the special protocals are also benefiting. They are selling books, pamphlets, holding lectures and quite a few are pushing holistic items heavily (so not all of them are in it for the 'Dodd reasons').
Just wanting to see data, like data. Right now this makes me nervous, FAR, FAR too many of my applicants have stopped seeing vets all together, especially for cats, because of the regurgitated and repeated and grape-vined information about this. I wish it was being handled more efficiently and effectively. |
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| Eiredale1 |
Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 9:13 am
Post subject: Re: Vaccination protocols |
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| CatsRus wrote: |
I'm still waiting for scientific, controlled, actual "studies". We don't tend to vaccinate frequently, but let's face it, every animal that comes through rescue has to have a vaccination as you don't know if they ever HAVE had one. Titers are not 100%, especially when dealing with animals of unknown origin. If it were your own pets, with known histories, where you had a field of reference - different story. |
I forgot to include this link, which provides info re. the Purdue vaccine study involving beagles. This is an ongoing, controlled study. The info provided in this link is a brief summary, and it's from 1999. There was nothing earthshattering in the findings at that point. www.doglogic.com/purduevaccinestudy.htm
I agree that any animal coming through rescue must be vaccinated; I would not suggest doing a titer rather than vaccines for any animal with an unknown history.
At this point, I personally don't worry about people choosing to titer, but failing to provide regular vet care. That's because, in my experience, the people I know who titer are the last people who would neglect the health needs of their pets. They're not using titering as an excuse to avoid vet visits. I do understand Cats' point, though, on how that could happen.
I do not agree that vaccines are a vet's "cash cow," and therefore vets fight the idea of titering. If vets were interested in cash cows only, they could certainly jump on the titer bandwagon as titers cost far more than vaccines!
In the end, I think every pet owner should arm themselves with the information needed to make informed decisions regarding pet care, be it the choice to vaccinate or titer or which food to feed. One individual's interpretation of that information may lead her to make one decision, while a second person's interpretation may lead him to make another. IMO, what matters is that both decisions were "informed"! |
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| mom2dogs |
Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:25 am
Post subject: |
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I think the real danger is in the "Average Joe" pet owner using the various information about vax dangers on the internet (which we all know is varied as to source and reliability!!) to justify NOT vax'ing, NOT titering, and NOT taking their animals for well checks.
If you are going to choose (with your vet's blessing) to forego annual vax or even tri-annual vax, you MUST (IMO) commit to taking your dog for well-checks every 6 months. Usually, vets only see pets at vax time or if something is REALLY wrong. The average pet owner that I've met doesn't have enough knowledge of veterinary care to recognize more subtle symptoms and early-onset of serious conditions. Just think of how many owner surrendered animals we see with UTIs (surrendered because they are peeing in the house!) or tapes or a variety of other conditions that NEEDED veterinary care, but didn't get it.
I am all for vaxing animals with unknown histories. I am all for (intelligently) titering pets with otherwise good veterinary care and relatively low risk of infection. I am NOT for owners using this as another cost-cutting measure for their pet care budgets, just as I am NOT for vaccine makers shoving annual revax down pet owners throats at any cost to the pets.
BTW, my vet believes in titering so much, the full set of titers only run around $50-$60. About the same as the office call and vax. They are promoting the 3-yr revax protocol in their office and also stressing the need for bi-annual physical exams. They make it very easy and affordable for people to give their animals proper veterinary care. And they figured out a way to preserve their cash flow without pushing annual vax!! I LOVE them!! |
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| JDrawdy |
Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 6:48 pm
Post subject: Rabies Titers |
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I wonder, what organization or individual would provide funding for adverse vaccine reaction studies? It seems all or most interested parties are too invested in the profit-making venture of vaccines. The pharmaceutical companies certainly don't want these studies done.
Personally, I do not vaccinate my pets at all and this is with the advice and support of my veterinarian who knows my pets individually.
For rescue puppies, IF THEY ARE HEALTHY, I'll sometimes give a parvo (alone) and a distemper (alone) later. I never, ever vaccinate any sick animal and by sick I mean everything from flea & other parasite infestations to underweight animals or animals in any sort of distress.
Indeed, if vets would regularly share the vaccine vial inserts warnings - many people would realize their pets (especially pets in rescue groups or newly rescued) would not qualify for vaccination. In part, the insert reads ***Only to be administered to healthy animals by violation of federal law*** Vaccine companies warn that pets with parasites, in heat, pregnant, with seizure disorders, or with any disease at all should not be vaccinated. But who reads those inserts?
I think it should be legally required of veterinarians to explain the risks associated with vaccines compared to the benefits. Unfortunately for them, if they did this honestly, most pet owners would refuse to risk their pets life for a questionable vaccination.
Posted Thu Apr 14, 2005 3:59 pm:
I wonder....many old school vets won't accept titers claiming that titers are "not 100%" accurate. Yet, ALL vaccine research clearly states that vaccines are also not 100% ....hmm...
Also, if rabies titers aren't good enough for my pet ...WHY are they good enough for veterinarians, shelter workers and techs..? This population is usually required (or chooses) to have rabies protection and they get TITERS not vaccines. Why? |
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| CatsRus |
Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 8:04 am
Post subject: Re: Rabies Titers |
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First, welcome back JD, I missed my debating partner.
| JDrawdy wrote: | | I wonder, what organization or individual would provide funding for adverse vaccine reaction studies? It seems all or most interested parties are too invested in the profit-making venture of vaccines. The pharmaceutical companies certainly don't want these studies done. |
I know I do not agree across the board with this generalization, but I'm not even sure (besides the generalization which I am allergic to...lol), I concur at all in most cases.
All vets I use are very interested in the health and happiness of pet and owner. All work with rescues, so money isn't in their future, they won't be getting a fancy car off what they do for us for free!
My personal interactions with vaccine companies and testing labs/products (Idex and such) have been very positive. We have had reps come out to explain the various tests and provide them at great discounts. They offer charity lab accounts for us for that testing. I know companies have "profit margins", but I'm finding quite a few that can manage that AND love animals.
| JDrawdy wrote: | | Personally, I do not vaccinate my pets at all and this is with the advice and support of my veterinarian who knows my pets individually. |
I fully support anyone following the advice and care of their vet. I don't support those making up their own protocals and not finding a vet that will support them.
| JDrawdy wrote: | | For rescue puppies, IF THEY ARE HEALTHY, I'll sometimes give a parvo (alone) and a distemper (alone) later. I never, ever vaccinate any sick animal and by sick I mean everything from flea & other parasite infestations to underweight animals or animals in any sort of distress. |
Shelters have to vaccinate everything that walks in the door, sick or not. Most have no luxury of quarantine, or foster care or isolation or after care if they get ill. Vaccination of pets has GREATLY improved the survival rate and health of pets at my local shelters. Previous, the larger ones did not vaccinate for anything...parvo and other illnesses were so common, adoptions and rescue was not an option. With the introduction of the vaccinate & worm upon entry, the mortality rate dropped immensely.
Cats were still a problem. So we worked with them on vaccinating with Bordetella (Kennel Cough - yes, cats get it). This helped tremendously as the cat were no longer as "goopy" when they were in the shelter.
So I guess I have literally watched the progress of a good vaccinating protocal at work. Shelter do not have the luxuries that we do in rescue or an individual home has.
| JDrawdy wrote: | Indeed, if vets would regularly share the vaccine vial inserts warnings - many people would realize their pets (especially pets in rescue groups or newly rescued) would not qualify for vaccination. In part, the insert reads ***Only to be administered to healthy animals by violation of federal law*** Vaccine companies warn that pets with parasites, in heat, pregnant, with seizure disorders, or with any disease at all should not be vaccinated. But who reads those inserts?
I think it should be legally required of veterinarians to explain the risks associated with vaccines compared to the benefits. Unfortunately for them, if they did this honestly, most pet owners would refuse to risk their pets life for a questionable vaccination. |
All our vets do this.
| JDrawdy wrote: | I wonder....many old school vets won't accept titers claiming that titers are "not 100%" accurate. Yet, ALL vaccine research clearly states that vaccines are also not 100% ....hmm...
Also, if rabies titers aren't good enough for my pet ...WHY are they good enough for veterinarians, shelter workers and techs..? This population is usually required (or chooses) to have rabies protection and they get TITERS not vaccines. Why? |
Again, generalization.
The Animal Control officers in my area have to have to be vax against rabies at regular intervals, their insurance company will NOT accept titers as proof. So what drives that isn't money or "old school vets", but insurance.
Titers are useless in cats for FIP diagnosis. So no, not all titers are good or even useful. So I don't want to jump on the titer = magic = good bandwagon, but rather evaluate them as they come.
I honestly doubt we could adopt out animals without vaccination, even with titers. The law/regulations are such that "animals must be vaccinated against..." is present in everything I read. So maybe if this is going to be accepted, we need to also throw effort at changing the laws/regulations AND the dratted insurance companies! |
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| JDrawdy |
Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 3:41 pm
Post subject: response to CatsRus |
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Hi CatsRus...
I’m on my way to pick up a puppy so, I won’t respond to everything but did want to mention….
As you may remember from when I was on these boards before, I enjoy a rather unique set of circumstances that allow me to operate my rescue/adoption program differently than a shelter or even most private groups. However, I did spend years in the shelter environment and DO understand and appreciate the limitations and the differences in protocol necessary in that environment.
That said, I promote “holistic adoptions” and adhere to protocols handed to me by holistic vets working with me. Legally, there are no requirements for vaccination except for rabies which is mandatory in most states. So, a typical kitten in my program will get an initial vet check up, a Leukemia/Aids test, a fecal, homeopathic de-worming, and, if necessary, a natural de-flea (usually a bath or combing does the trick). Of course, they are spayed/neutered and I’m fortunate enough to have vets who will do the surgery without vaccinations.
I realize this is contradictory to the standard in rescue, but I do not vaccinate my kittens at all. I leave the vaccine decisions up to the adopter and their veterinarian (most of my adopters choose holistic vets, so it works out). However, I do require they have a veterinarian (holistic or otherwise) and set up a relationship with that vet to minimally include an initial post-adoption visit to discuss a health plan.
This works for me and I feel very positive about promoting a healthy start for the life of the kittens in my care. But again, I am NOT working within a typical rescue scenario. I am blessed to have consistent financial support, a great group of holistically-minded vets, an animal nutritionist as a business partner, and the overall support of my community for my programs. Plus, I do have the benefit of quarantine so I am not as subject to unforeseen problems.
So, anyway….I know that much of the content of my posts can be disregarded by most rescues because operating the way I am is not feasible for most. Still, I enjoy sharing and learning from others and appreciate the diversity found in the rescue community. |
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| CatsRus |
Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:23 pm
Post subject: Re: response to CatsRus |
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| JDrawdy wrote: | That said, I promote “holistic adoptions” and adhere to protocols handed to me by holistic vets working with me. Legally, there are no requirements for vaccination except for rabies which is mandatory in most states. So, a typical kitten in my program will get an initial vet check up, a Leukemia/Aids test, a fecal, homeopathic de-worming, and, if necessary, a natural de-flea (usually a bath or combing does the trick). Of course, they are spayed/neutered and I’m fortunate enough to have vets who will do the surgery without vaccinations................................................
So, anyway….I know that much of the content of my posts can be disregarded by most rescues because operating the way I am is not feasible for most. Still, I enjoy sharing and learning from others and appreciate the diversity found in the rescue community. |
Legally, for us, we would be shut down asap if we sent out a pet without vaccinations. We are told what the minimum is by the Dept of Ag AND by PETsMART/PetCo. They have to follow the Dept of Ag for their licensing also. We have inspectors who check vet records for the pets that belong to the store and for ours being kept at the store.
I know your state has loose regs in that area, I remember we talked about that before. It probably also depends on the disease problems in the area, we are at high risk, pretty common to find distemper in raccoons and FIV, FeLV and Panleuk occur regularly in loose and shelter cats. |
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| JDrawdy |
Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 7:49 pm
Post subject: oops |
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Legally, for us, we would be shut down asap if we sent out a pet without vaccinations. We are told what the minimum is by the Dept of Ag AND by PETsMART/PetCo. They have to follow the Dept of Ag for their licensing also. We have inspectors who check vet records for the pets that belong to the store and for ours being kept at the store.
What state are you in? I've never heard of any outside or non-vet agency imposing vaccine protocol.
I'm curious about this...in Florida, the pet "lemon law" only applies to people selling pets and expressly excludes adoption programs.
Posted Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:50 pm:
OOPS, I accidently didn't quote you properly! Sorry. |
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| AMH |
Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 8:48 pm
Post subject: |
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| Is Arkansas the only state that requires yearly rabies vaccination? |
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| CatsRus |
Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 7:47 am
Post subject: Re: oops |
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| JDrawdy wrote: | | What state are you in? I've never heard of any outside or non-vet agency imposing vaccine protocol. |
It is actually done this way in quite a few states, with more becoming that way. MOST states have some State Agency that deals with Animal licensing and humane housing type of stuff. In order to be licensed as a shelter, you are required to be inspected.
The USDA inspects pet stores, vet offices and any other animal concerns. If you are not following the health, sanitary and safety regs, you loose your license.
You are in Florida, right? I think they have like zero laws, we used to call it "debtor heck" because collection agencies can operate without any legal boundaries in Florida also (Texas has the opposite, debtor heaven, you cannot collect any debt without devine intervention). |
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